More Sony Bashing


This time it’s *shock horror* Microsoft’s UK Retail Boss Neil Thompson’s turn to have a go at Sony claiming they are forcing consumers into buying unproven technology:

“I find it concerning for consumers that they’re being forced into a purchase… I don’t think they need to make that decision for another two, three years maybe. Sony now have a very interesting business model I think they’re going to find challenging.”

Nobody is being forced to buy a PS3. Nobody is holding a gun to my head demanding I buy a PS3. :roll:

The difference between BR & HD-DVD is that all PS3 games will come on BRD so regardless of whether BR wins or loses the next-gen DVD war BR will still be used for gaming. Yes it could financially cripple Sony IF BR fails as the next-gen DVD of choice but it won’t make the PS3 useless & extinct.

Microsft Bashes Sony. Again.


Written by: Gary - News Contributor


  1. #1 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    But haven’t you said the same thing, that you’re not ready for an HDTV purchase yet and the high entry price of the PS3 concerns you?

    Sure microsoft is ignoring the fact that they would have loved to do the same thing, but the fear of a year delay +$600 price tag just wasn’t worth the risk for them, but the argument that it makes things tougher, especially in the first couple years of the consoles life, is valid.

  2. #2 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    I do find it funny that Microsoft originally planned on including the HD-DVD player in the Xbox 360 but they did not want to wait for everything to be finalized to launch the 360.

  3. #3 by Henning on May 31st, 2006 [ 0 Points ]

    Gary’s point is still valid, though. Is BMW forcing you to buy iDrive because it’s included by default in the 750i? No, you can always buy something else.

    The difficultly in selling a higher priced item isn’t in dispute. Microsoft’s rhetoric that we’re being forced into something is. All products have many features. Often you don’t like them, and often you do. Sometimes it’s worth the cost and sometimes it’s not. Personally, I’m willing to pay for the PS3. It’s my choice. I’m not being forced into anything.

  4. #4 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    Yeah I’m not ready, just as most people in Europe aren’t, for HDTV as there is very little High-def content to justify a HDTV purchase. Yeah the price is high but it’s justified & I’m certainly not being forced to get something I don’t want. Nobody is.

    Their argument is about BR being included in the box unlike HD-DVD which is optional. BR is being used for games unlike HD-DVD which isn’t. It will be interesting to see just how many units of the HD-DVD add-on will sell when it’s released.

  5. #5 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    That’s not a fair comparison at all, because BMW isn’t trying to make money off of making iDrive an industry standard for something that has nothing to do with cars.

    Blu-ray isn’t being used for games, definitely not at launch. No one is gonig to be doing anything on the playstation 3 that requires more space than a dual-layer dvd for the first few years its out. That they are putting all the games on Blu-ray discs is irrelevant, not to mention th problem that their drive is actually slower than the 360′s DVD drive, so when someone does want to use all that space, they’ll have a challenge on their hands in terms of load times.

  6. #6 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    Make your mind up. First you say BR isn’t being used for games then you say they are & that it’s irrelevant.

    BR IS being used for all games starting from launch & it is relevant. Load times are affected by storage space not disc speed.

  7. #7 by Sino on May 31st, 2006

    Trust me, you will be gald to have Blu-Ray in your game console. We could have all the games on cds but it doesn’t work that way.

  8. #8 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    What???

    Gary, perhaps I wasn’t clear. just because a game is shipping no a blu-ray disc, doesn’t mean it “uses” blu-ray. If its still 5GB game, absolutely nothing has been gained by putting it on Blu-ray, in fact something was lsot becasue now the transfer speed was slower.

    There will be no 20GB games at PS3 launch. As far as load times not being affected by speed….what are you talking about?????? That doesn’t even make sense.

    It’s a fact that 2x Blu-ray transfer is slower than the average speed of the 360′s 12x DVD drive. If you can’t get the data off of the disc, it doesn’t matter how much there is.

  9. #9 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    Actually if you go to the Blu-Ray website (or any other technical site if one wants to say Blu-Ray is lying about the specs) it clearly states that it has a higher reading compacity then DVD players. They also fail to mention 2 other important facters that often get overlooked. Scratch resistance…from what I understand these can be scuffed pretty bad and still be read easily….and security measures…..less piracy which ultimately leads to lower costs (hopefully).

  10. #10 by observer on May 31st, 2006

    Richard, you’re right in that there is a very valid point in Microsoft’s statement: a lot of people would are put off by Blu-Ray and would rather Sony have focused on other advantages for the PS3. But their statement is clearly 1% valid point, 99% smear job. Do you think Microsoft is genuinely concerned about PS3 consumers not getting the best deal? No, they are fueling public upset and anger over the PS3 price and Blu-Ray technology.

    “No one is gonig to be doing anything on the playstation 3 that requires more space than a dual-layer dvd for the first few years its out.”

    Nonsense! I would bet a lot of money that we will see titles using the extra space in the first year.

    And regarding drive speed, c’mon, you’re stretching. If you don’t want a PS3, that’s fine, but there’s no speed problem. The 360′s 12x DVD has a slight edge in throughput specs over a 2x BD, but nothing huge. And the PS3 is guaranteed to run with a HD that can be used for improved performance.

  11. #11 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    The key is the storage space not the disc speed. I’ve read developers state that they can have a game world far bigger than what we saw in San Andreas & have no visible load times thanks to the extra storage space that BR offers.

  12. #12 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    correction to my math..DVD X 12 can read approx 20 Mbps more but like observer says..HDD cache will make up for that greatly.

  13. #13 by Segitz on May 31st, 2006

    So…

    first of all, the 360 DVD is (maxxed out) faster than a 2x BD drive. Thats compared 9MB/s (BD) and 16MB/s (360 DVD at 12x).

    BUT, a DVD drive only reaches 12x when the data is at its most outer place on a DVD, and the BD ROM ALWAYS reads at 2x, so no matter where your data is stored, it always is read at 9MB/s…

    So… MS, Sony forces me to buy a BD drive with a PS3, eh? Tell you what, I am FREAKIN GLAD about that! That way, I dont need no other player inside my living room which takes up much space (HD-DVD addon anyone?) and I can do BOTH out of the box! You know, there are some other things, that make BD a perfect choice for the PS3… Games! Games in the future WILL take up easily more than 8.5GB… Tell you what, some of my PS2 games already did that (Xenosaga for example!). To those “but games nowadays dont need that” morons everywhere… The first batch of PS2 Games did indeed fit onto CDs, as some also do also today (Metal Slug 5…)… And take a look at the PS1… There were really MANY games that needed 2 or more cds for the game, sometimes not even for videos (I look at you Gran Turismo 2).

    Now take a look in the future. Games now can use up to nearly 512mb of data for only one freaking scene of a game, instead of 34 (ps2) or 64 (xbox) and the old games sometimes nearly ate up al the space on dvd9! (GTA SA took the whole space on a DVD5 without a hitch). Now 64 to 512 is a 8times multiplication… As you can see, new games, with todays “standard” but new graphics can easily outscore DVD5 AND DVD9… Lets take GTA SA again. 9 times 4.5GB equals 41.5GB… Hmmm… Now, think again… How much data can a BD ROM use at max? 54GB (including crc and stuff), 50GB user data… And now what? Only 20% free in the end… What will the 360 do in 2-3 yrs time? GTA with 1 dvd per island? That would surely suck, wouldnt it?

    MS now is just pissed, they missed the chance to include a next gen drive into its not so next gen console, so they can get a head start to an totally bigger player in the same genre. Headstarts dont mean shit, if the product isnt up to the challenge. I dont say, the 360 is a bad console, mind you, but in some time (half the life cycle of todays consoles), MS will surely suffer the inevitable consequences for that decision. MS WILL (imho) launch a new console in 5 years or less to compensate given mistake.

    I aint glad about all of Sonys decisions (omitting the HDMI port in the 20GB is the biggest mistake of them all), but that goddamn dumbass interviews of MSs execs, about how mean it is from Sony to be superior and to force you to pay more for superiority (meaning BD ROM) is just plain stupid. If MS doesnt have content to put up against Sony, they should just shut their freakin mouth for gods sake.

    Tell you what… I am glad Sony doesnt go down to MSs level and bash them the same way. I really am!

  14. #14 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    If you’re going to lie and say disc speed doesn’t amtter then theres really not much to say. To insinuate the Blu-ray is going to enable worlds bigger than San andreas is simply a lie, those worlds were never limited by the psace fo a DVD, only by the RAM of the PS2.

    In fact, when san andreas shipped for Xbox, the game took up even less space on the DVD than it did for the PS2 because the developers were able to use texture compression on the xbox’s more powerful processor and save RAM space. To say that open world games are going to fill up blu-ray discs and exceed dvd capacity simply isn’t true. The limiting factor is still the system RAM. If you think the ps3′s standard hard drive and therefore cache space will help with that, then that is a different question entirely.

    observer – I’d bet that we don’t (with a small caveat, games using FMV to fill up the disc don’t count) something that has to do with actual gameplay.I didn’t say I didn’t want a PS3, and I didn’t say there was a speed problem, but the fact is that the increased the size of the disc, but not the speed of the drive. It will be much harder for developers to take advantage of the storage space due to that. I was hoping the PS3 would include a 4x drive and really make an advance.

  15. #15 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    But what about these developers opinoins?

    “The Darkness” developer:

    “The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD… thats really a problem.”

    Team Ninja

    “The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft’s decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It’s ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the “HD era”, but is the least prepared for it… However, don’t be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive.”

    “The developer of “Enchant Arms,”

    “The developer of “Enchant Arms,” an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted “that’s even looking grim.” Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience.”

    Vivendi Universal

    “The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies,” said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
    “Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming.”

    EA

    “EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning.”

    [Henning: Edited links to be in place.]

  16. #16 by observer on May 31st, 2006

    ehandlr, Don’t forget GTA:SA developer, Dan houser. From an interview in 2004 about GTA:SA, well before the PS3 was even announced.

    “The danger is currently the storage medium (DVD), and one we thing we’re all praying for in the next round of hardware is that they don’t just go, ‘It’s DVD again’. We’ve done some clever stuff with compressing it, but we were virtually full on the disc with Vice City – this time we’re overfilling the disc to the max.”

    http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=56025

  17. #17 by Hiro on May 31st, 2006

    I ain’t gonna get into some arguement here, especially judging by some of the comments above, but not one game has hit over 1 disc. Everyone went ape shit over Oblivion and that fit on one disc.

    The developer of Enchanted Arms said that the game will struggle to fit on 2 disc’s, yet the game launched fitting on one disc easily, Microsoft have always said they are giving developers compression tools to help with that.

    EA can just plain *******, some of their games are beyond a joke and they need to be told a lesson.

    [Henning: please watch your language folks.]

  18. #18 by Hiro on May 31st, 2006

    Observer: Weren’t those disc’s half the capacity of the DVD9 that the Xbox 360 uses? along with the better compression tools.

  19. #19 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    Oblivion also used repeating texture maps such as houses and trees. All generic and reused graphics. They all had detail and were pretty..however nothing unique about each locations details.

    Besides..not arguing…its a friendly debate and informative talks.

    Not to mention I see in the future “Directors Cut” type of games….all the behind the scenes stuff with easter eggs etc. Or possibly having entire series of games put on one disc… Imagine with your purchase of FFXIII that on the special edition you can get FF 1- 12 as an added bonus on the same disc.

  20. #20 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    Face it guys if you ask most developers to choose which format they can develop games on they would choose BR & that has been proven with the comments above. BR might not be no.1 choice for next-gen DVDs but for games developers it certainly is.

  21. #21 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    What???

    I don’t understand how you can say blu-ray is the no.1 choice for games, when that question has never been asked. no one is using HD DVD for game consoles. No one will use blu-ray or hd-dvd for pc games for a very long time (most pc games STILL ship on CDs).

    I have no idea what you’re talknig about when you claim blu-ray is the popular choice for game developers, for the ps3, it’s their only choice, and for anything else it is not an option.

  22. #22 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    Just to make things clear, i have no idea what the link about regarding GTA “filling the disc” is, but the fact is GTA Vice city only took up 1.2GB on xbox.

    San andreas only took up 2.95gb of space

    http://forum.teamxbox.com/showpost.php?p=7097722&postcount=73

    http://fileforums.com/showthread.php?t=43604
    If you read the actual interview with eurogamer, they filled a SINGLE LAYER DVD, not a whole dvd. and as I noted above, when they went to the more powerful xbox, they were able to compress it to less than half the space so that they could improve performance.

  23. #23 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    You may be correct in that statement but that is not Blu-Rays fault. It may be the only choice OTHER then DVD…however its still a choice and most developers want more space. I think they of all people know why or what they need them for.

    Also using PC games as an example is a bad example. PC Gaming is almost a dying breed much to my regret. Most PC games are capable of being ported to console systems now. Not to mention most popular PC games are on DVD like FFXI and WOW.

    As far as developers choices…I fairly sure every single developer i listed above are multi-platform developers. I think it speaks clearly as to what they are looking for.

  24. #24 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    If you read the comments from developers above they ALL welcomed BR! Add to that UBISOFT Montreal developers of Assassin’s Creed & they are very complimentary about BR. If they were to choose between DVD & BR they will choose BR.

  25. #25 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    Here is another developers opinion I didn’t add to the list:

    OPM: How’s your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

    M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that’s really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn’t been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn’t matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can’t tell yet currently

  26. #26 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    Sorry forgot to add this..the above post is from Assasins Creed Developers

  27. #27 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    Gary, if you’re not going to address my actual statements then we have nothing to discuss,

    The fact is the game developers did not choose Blu-ray. What else could they possibly say? “We hate blu-ray, but you can’t release on ps3 without it”.

    The fact is assassin’s creed was already announced for the Xbxo 360, so Blu-ray obviously is irrelevant. The fact is GTA SA only took up a quarter of the space of a dual-layer dvd. even if it took up 4 times the space with the exact same compression, it would still fit.

    Games don’t need blu-ray.

  28. #28 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    ehandlr, even in the comment you posted, there is no actual statement about how they are going to use the extra space fo blu-ray. just “extra space, good”. if they are streaming the content off the disc, ignoring the hard drive, then HDD caching is not an issue, and only transfer rate matters. they’re not gonig to double the content streamed off the disc, when it runs the same speed as a DVD drive.

  29. #29 by Segitz on May 31st, 2006

    You need to take into concern, that having a limiting factor AND obeying it, limits your choice what to do in games.

    Think of it that way, you have NO BOUNDARIES whatsoever and you develop a game like GTA SA… You will end up having a game 10 times as big as it is now…

    When you have boundaries, you CANNOT do it. If you know, you have 4.35gb on a disc (for ps2) you will obey that, because not doing so will cost money!

    I Germany, most newer games are shipped nowadays on DVD (pc games)… Just to inform you.

  30. #30 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    I agree it didn’t speak to its use..but there has to be a reason for their preference. And to my knowledge, Assasins Creed has not been officially announced for any other console just yet. There are rumors swirling around..but no confirmation.

  31. #31 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    Games might not NEED BR but they will sure as hell benefit from them. If you look back through all the comments you will find that I didn’t make the comments about GTA & it’s size on DVD so it isn’t my place to respond to them.

    Also I feel that ehandlr & observer have answered you more than adequately so I don’t need to repeat what they have already said.

    I don’t know why you keep saying BR is irrelevant when it IS relevant. UBISOFT is a multiplatform developer so they have no reason to kiss Sony’s ass by saying BR is the greatest. Check ehandler’s comment just above & see for yourself.

  32. #32 by Richard Lawler on May 31st, 2006

    If Blu-ray is relevant then why haven’t ubisoft told us what they are going to do with the extra space?

    oh, yeah because it’s exactlty like I already said, it will be several generations before we actually see games that can take advantage of it. You don’t need Blu-ray for assassin’s creed, but you’ll have to pay for it if you want to play on PS3. thats forced.

  33. #33 by Hiro on May 31st, 2006

    Assassins Creed was originally titled Project Assassin and was announced for the Xbox 360 back at X05 last year, also put that alongside the leaked Ubisoft release list, that listed Assassins Creed as being a Xbox 360 game.

  34. #34 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    Why don’t you wait and see what UBISOFT & other developers will do with the extra space. I totally disagree with you about waiting 2-3 years before we see games using the extra space that BR gives developers. Let’s just wait & see.

  35. #35 by Gary on May 31st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    It’s not forced. There’s always a choice. We will just have to wait & see just how beneficial BR is to games.

  36. #36 by ehandlr on May 31st, 2006

    I’m aware Assassins Creed was originally posted as a Xbox 360 game under the project name..but it has been removed and Ubisoft is being very tight lipped about it. They will not admit or announce its multiplatform..however they won’t let “exclusivity” slip either. I think they are still playing with ideas..however I think its starting to look exclusive.

    As far as forced goes…one mans trash is another mans treasure..nobody is forcing you to purchase a PS3…its their product..they offer it as they feel they need to…its your choice whether to buy it or not. Funny thing about entertainment products….nothing is forced.

  37. #37 by Henning on May 31st, 2006 [ 0 Points ]

    Champions of Norrath is a PS2 dual-layer game because they couldn’t fit all the content onto one layer. They decided in the sequel to do away with randomly generated dungeons because it took up too much disc space and they were having problems with the dual-layer aspect of the game. How, I don’t know.

    Admittedly, this is a limitation of the PS2′s dual-layer reading abilities. But it does point out that there’s a need for more than just the 4.7GB of disc space that a single layer can hold. I really missed the random dungeons in the sequel.

    Is it so hard to imagine that if you need more than 4.7GB of space for a current generation game, that you might need, or could use, more than 9.4GB in a next-gen game? That’s an easy leap to make.

  38. #38 by Matt on May 31st, 2006

    They are forcing consumers to buy Blu-Ray. If you buy the PS systems to play the FF series than I guess you are @#$% out of luck. It is either play your favorite series on hardware that you don’t need or switch to another console maker. Many gamers pick a system based on the content it has.

    The best part is most of you don’t own HDTVs and you are arguing that you need Blu-Ray? For what, 3-4 years from now when we are talking about PS4 and Xbox 3? I don’t get it. In 2-3 years a stand-alone player will be so cheap and be 10x more featured.

    I honestly believe that BR games will not be needed. The FF series will probally use up more space than a DVD-9, but only because of the FMV. They don’t have to include it, but they will because the can.

    I personally see the extra space as a garbage dump for lazy developers. Their will be no need for all the extra space.

    Compression techniques are getting much better a lot faster. If you think about the future of gaming, eventually downloading will be the way to go. Internet speeds are increasing but at a much slower pace than compression. Developers will make more money by downloading directly to the consumer. They don’t have to pay for the booklet, casing, disc, etc. They just have to set up servers or have the game companies (Xbox Live) handle it for them. This is the future and it can’t happen fast enough for game developers.

    On the argument of of BR vs. DVD. That is like asking a car guy would he rather have a 500 hp Porsche or a 50 hp Hugo. When given a choice about performance they will always take the better option.

  39. #39 by Segitz on May 31st, 2006

    Everybody, think again…

    Lets take a closer look at older games and game sizes…

    I grew up with a C64 and thereafter a AMIGA 500… Most games only used up 1-2 discs, which was common and ok… Nobody said, we needed a replacement or anything else, you could hook up to 3 extra drive (1 built in) to an Amiga.

    As the time passed, games grew and grew… In the End, bigger games like Indiana Jones 4 or Monkey Island 2 ended up using 12 to 14 discs and were a pain in the ass for non-hd amiga users. The same goes for PCs, but they were more into hds at that time.

    My first pc was in 1994, a Pentium 60 with 8 mb ram and a 2x CD ROM. My first CD Game was “Nascar Racing” by Papyrus (GREAT game btw.). I used, iirc, 15mb from the CD… So nothing big here. BUT, it used the CD for music, GREAT music (if there only were more than 2 freakin tracks).

    Some time later, i bought Wing Commander 4, using frikkin 4 CDs… OK, mainly for FMVs but, it took advantage of the new media!

    Didnt you ever notice pc games using nearly exactly 700mbs of space on a single cd game? I did A LOT! You know what too? It is nearly impossible to get that amount of space just out of coincidence! They just stripped away “unnessesary” stuff… I dont want such things to happen! REALLY.

    Times passes… My brother buys a PS1… Great thing… Resident Evil 1/2 and GT1/2…

    Again, mostly FMVs used up storage space, because the real graphics just didnt need that much space… (Think, the PS1 had about 2megs space AT ALL!).

    Time passes on… I buy a PS2 in 2001. Getting GT3 was AWESOME…. You know what. GT3 did nearly fill up a full freakin DVD itself. GT4 uses DUALLAYER (ok, only 5.5gb, but PS2 games were never supposed to be duallayer either!)

    I see MANY games, using up DVD5 in PS2 games. Look at FFX. If that game had shipped on CD, they wouldnt have done it with 7 CDs. They would surely have stripped out some FMVs to accomodate the economical judgement. 5cds are cheaper than 7! I also think that some FMVs were cut out of FFX, just because using nearly exactly 4.35gb is impossible by coincidence.

    The first games batch of PS3 games wont surely need more than 8.5gb (NO DVD9 DOES NOT GIVE YOU 9GB USER SPACE!), i can guarantee you that, BUT there WILL BE games that could and eventuelly WILL take advantage of increased storage space.

    Sony did take into concern that the PS3 using a BD ROM drive is a good marketing trick, no doubt, but MS did the biggest mistake in NOT using a next gen DVD Drive! Its the next logical step to take.

    Imagine, as i stated above, Sony didnt use DVD but CDROM instead for the PS2… We would surely be ****ED! More than 80% (more likely 95%) use more than 700MB of userdata… The same goes for PS1 games. Nearly all of them needed the space to the rim (Mostly for XA Music, but notheless).

    EXPECT games to take advantage of more than 8.5GB in the VERY NEAR future! MS games will either be stripped and watered down, or PS3 games will suffer (I expect THAT from EA of course!).

    As for movies. Why complain. A feature more you can use… For the Price? A 100€ premium (YES you can compare the premium 360 with a PS3, just look at the contents of the package!), just consider yourself ever wanting so use the HD capability of the 360 and you are ***, because you need something extra…

    So, good nite, too much PS3Blog writing for today!

    Ahh.. Eurogamer has another “Sony bash” MS interview on site… Like i said, if MS has nothing to stand into PS3s way, why dont they just SHUT **** UP??

    [Henning: edited for language.]

  40. #40 by observer on May 31st, 2006

    Hiro, PS2 supports the same DVD9 as 360.

    Despite GTA’s Dan Houser claiming that GTA:SA needed a double layer DVD, the final game only used a full single layer disc. I suspect this is due to the dual-layer DVD9′s layer switch issue. DVD drives often take 1-2 full seconds to switch between layers; you often notice this two second layer switch time when watching some movies. Games need to avoid frequent random seeks across layers. For some level-based games, you can put half the levels on one layer and half on the other, and duplicate commonly accessed content. Another approach is to put infrequently used FMV on one layer, and the dynamic game content on the other. But games like GTA inherently require lots of unpredictable random data access and there is no easy way to split game content so that you avoid frequent layer switches. For this reason, I suspect, GTA:SA was stuck using single layer.

  41. #41 by JustME on May 31st, 2006

    M$ is just scared. They know once the PS3 comes out the 360 is dead, so they have to try everything possible to make the PS3 look bad. Some people will fall for it, but if you look who is talking, you know better.

  42. #42 by WonderSteve on May 31st, 2006

    MS is just so freaking annoying. They should be quiet and concentrate on what they need to do the most. Get more exclusive from Japanese developers!

    Anyways, do some of you people honestly think that MS would not include a HD-DVD drive as a standard if they are going to launch the 360 one year later than the orginal date? I seriously think they would since HD-DVD uses iHD, which is MS developed software for writing HD-DVD interface. They make money of every HD-DVD sales just like Sony would do on Blu-ray. Both companies are just as evil.

    I think some of PS3′s advantage is underlooked by the people on the internet though (because bashing Sony on the net is so cool these days!). I think Sony is smart to include HDD as a standard this time unlike the XBOX 360.

  43. #43 by 12,000lb Leg Press on June 1st, 2006

    Just a thought, the reason that most last generation games required so much space was because of FMV and the hardwares’ inability to produce quality sequences in realtime. Current generations systems have more than enough power to generate cut scenes that are comparable to some of the best pre-rendered materials. Look @ Gears of War on the X360, this is only the 2nd wave of releases, the game’s level of detail can easily compare to CG used in modern video sequence. The fact that developers can now do these things in engine will save considerable amount of space on the DVD.

    Another thing, no matter how massive BR may be, the PS3 only has 512MB of total RAM which is split evenly between the major components. RAM is the real limitation not the storage space. U guys can recall back in the 32-bit days when massive games would ship on 4-6 CDs. There was a momentary interuption when one had to swap discs, but then the game continued on. Whats the big deal if the same happends with DVDs? Its a 2 seconds interuption. Thats if it even happens.

    MOST games require less than 5GB, there are 4GB of available growth remaining on a DVD. Growth that will come at a substantial cost to fill. The game industry is a business and most developers will approach that limit slowly and with the least amount of risk as possible. The Wii will also use DVDs and the millions of personal computers out there shipping with DVD drives, developers r going to continue producing content within the limits of DVD to maximize their sales potential. Consumer adoption of new technology can be very slow, especially when its intended to replace something that already works well enough for the majority.

    There are also much more sophisticated tools for data compression and real time procedural generation will allow developers to create content that will require fractions of the space compared to if it was done the traditional way. These are some of the solutions available or coming to developers to make things work. I can’t believe you guys are making such support for BR when most here have not experienced it. BR will not offer anything more substantial to a multiplatform title. Nobody here has made a good arguement as to why BR will b SSSOOO advantageous.

    I think the MS dude is right and some of you guys need to learn how to read and comprehend. He wasn’t implying that Sony is holding fire to someone’s hand to buy a PS3. The PS3 is in large part a trojan horse to move this BR but as I’ve been preaching b4 between sets, most are not ready or give a damn about a next format. Now if BR had a head start on the PS3 like the DVD had on the PS2, I could see this working. But starting from cold turkey…. We’ll see who had the best strategy in about 4 years.

  44. #44 by 12,000lb Leg Press on June 1st, 2006

    WonderSteve,

    There are plenty of talents elsewhere that produce just as good or better quality games than the Japanese. Man do I wish people will get off the Japanese little high horse already, geez.

  45. #45 by Hiro on June 1st, 2006

    JustME: Did you really have to spoil a brilliant discussion with such a stupid comment?

  46. #46 by Gary on June 1st, 2006 [ 1780 Points ]

    Like it or not Leg Press the Japanese market is a big cash cow for Sony & Nintendo and it’s an area that Microsoft has been unable to crack.

    The point concerning BR is that the extra space will offer a lot more freedom to developers so they aren’t restricted to 5GB as they are in most cases today.

    Multiple languages, no pal conversions, extra content that is normally only available via remixes, can be put in straight away. Developers like Capcom & Konami have claimed they were unable to fit in the content they wanted to in the original game (MGS3 & DMC3) due to time constraints so they release Subsistence & DMC3 SE.

    Because they don’t need to do 3 different versions of the same game for different territories they can work on doing the game the way they intended to do it without having to release ‘special editions’ of the same game. That is what BR brings to the table. So it IS relevant.

  47. #47 by phipscube on June 1st, 2006

    I’m all for Blu-Ray. I was quite miffed to hear Xbox 360 wouldn’t have a HD drive. I think the simple reason was they wanted to, but couldn’t wait. So now they are cliaming that HD storage isnt necessary. Hmmmm… I dont agree. Right now at this very moment, no probs. But seriously even if it does take 2 years to really need the extra, then what do MS do? were not looking at multi disc yet but we certainly will be before the Xbox 360 is even halfway through its life. Its not a really big deal, but I like the idea that there is all that space ready.

    I think what Sony ARE guilty of is not letting game developers have a choice like with the PS2. Why not let developers have an option? thats what gets me. I love Rez on the PS2 and its about 120MB in size. Putting that game on a DVD back then would have been a mad waste.

    So I really want BD, but think sony are being a bit pushy in not letting developers use DVD for now if they want. Microsoft are really showing that they rushed Xbox 360, the HD-DVD addon is a complete waste. They are forced to only offer it as a movie player purely because if they released games for it, then folks would be forced to buy it, or risk completely segmenting the market with an updated Xbox 360 with HD-DVD built in.

    I like all my stuff in one, I don’t want to add loads of different boxes together, its messy. The Xbox 360 PSU is bad enough, but with HD-DVD, Card reader in usb, wifi adapter sticking out the back.. BLEGH!! messy messy.

    The most important thing the PS3 will have over the Xbox 360 for my money is the noise emmitting from it. Its already announced that PS3 will be whisper quiet much like the PS2 slim. I appreciate that the most of all. I want to use it as a HD movie player and general multimedia machine as well as games machine so those moment of silence in movies wont be greeted with big fat whirry noises.

    Another thing people seem to dismiss is backwards compatibility! MS completely screwed this up. I am rest assured that I can buy a PS3 and know all my back catalogue of PS games work without worry or messing around downloading updates.

    I own an Xbox 360 and plan to get a Wii too… but both of these machines will be only used for exclusive games. My PS3 will be used for everything media related and the fantastic Sony franchies games and all other general games as I see them being best on PS3.

    The best things come to those who wait……..

  48. #48 by Matt on June 1st, 2006

    Give MS some credit. Considering they have some of the most brilliant minds in the world working for them. The must have done 1000X the research on DVD-9 storage space and if it will be enough for the life of the 360. MS has said a million times that they are in the console business for the long haul. This would mean 10-20 more years in my book. Why would they potentially destroy their customer base with tens to hundreds of games going multi disc? A couple here and there wouldn’t be bad since PS1 had a few multi dics games.

    Backwards Compatibility is a stupid feature to argue on. Their have been sooooo many polls taken on Xbox sites that almost everyone could care less about it. Ask yourself this question, when was the last time you played a PS1 game in your PS2. I admit that I tried it with the PS2 and Xbox 360, but it was really just to see if it worked. Call me weird but I like pulling out the old system for memories sake. About 2 years ago I pulled out the old N64 and had a huge GoldenEye 007 party at my house. People were coming in and going wholey crap dude, your N64 is hooked up? Awesome!

    I also fail to see how the HD-DVD add-on is a complete waste. If it comes in under $200 I will definately pick one up on launch day. The thing is that I have an instant use for it and would jump at the oppurtunity to watch some 720p movies right now. I just don’t want to pay a truckload for a player that if it fails it becomes useless.

    I know your arguement and ask yourself one question. Will your PS3 be hooked up to a HDTV when you get it? Probally not. You are being forced to purchase a format that might never win. If you don’t pick up an HDTV until 2-3 years from now a clear winner should be obvious by then. It maybe even sooner than that. What do you do if BR fails? Sure it won’t affect games but your precious movie player is now useless. The movie player that you paid $200 for.

  49. #49 by agent864 on June 1st, 2006

    All the arguments against including a bluray player don’t hold any water. Its simply Sony bashing and an anti-marketing campaign being conducted by Microsoft. I have a 360 but the vitriol spewed forth by both MS and its fan squadron have turned me off of investing any more money into it. There’s no games right now for it I want anyway, though I use it as an upscaling dvd player and original xbox games player.

    If bluray loses its still used for games and can still play and upscale DVD’s. The thing is bluray’s not going to lose.

    People are buying hdtv’s in droves now, and its just going to accelerate. Thats pretty much all you can buy in the stores now. Right now the PS3 *is* actually ahead of its time but by November the PS3 will be arriving at just the right time as long as the economy holds up. I’m not really happy with the controller I was hoping they’d go along with a redesign.

    All this bashing is nothing but an antimarketing campaign that will likely be silenced come October once all the final details are revealed.

  50. #50 by phipscube on June 2nd, 2006

    Matt

    I actually play PS1 games even now yes. I will on the PS3 too. There are certain games I like playing on even OLDER systems but rely on emulation through PC (Amiga being an old fave). I recently played through Jumping Flash again and am currently having the odd play on N20 (try the bonus round whilst having a relaxing smoke on that one!!) and Tempest X. I still bring these games out between long bouts on Shadow of the Colossus. I still like playing Ridge Racer V and Rez and will do when PS3 arrives. I like replaying old games as well as brand new ones. Its the choice Sony give you and very important to me. With PS3 there are no worries on hidden costs or suprises, you get everything you need as far as I can see, including full backward compatibility.

    If you look at the big picture now, how can Blu-Ray fail? I think only if the PS3 fails, but if thats the case I wont be stuck as such, I’ll just go out and buy a HD-DVD player if thats the winner, ok its more money, but thats life in the capitalist world. Look at how often you upgrade a pc, we are used to it, but really its not necessary. Its because we are made to believe we have to.

    Sony have forced a format on us, but if the PS3 sells how we all expect it will then how can Blu-ray possibly fail at all? If anything HD-DVD is in a worse position. not as much backing for a start and the BIG pusher for it would be to be included in a mass market device such as Xbox 360… but its not in there as standard… Sony are smart, devious, but smart. People are angry because its forced on us, but I dont see it like that, I WANT a next gen drive in my next gen system so I dont feel pushed. When I bought my Xbox 360 I felt limited which to me is worse. Also, I was miffed at the price of all the extras I had to pay for to make the machine “complete”. All this forced cack has come about MS saying “we offer you a choice” BS!!!!! yeah a confusing array of overpriced addons. £70 for a 20Gig hdd that only has 13Gig accessable? whats the deal there? £35 for a 64MB memory card? that can almost buy me a 512MB Memory stick pro duo….

    I remember the old Betamax/VHS format wars, I was there (Showing my age)… It took a good 5 years to really show through. Before that time you could easily go into a shop and rent VHS or Beta in the same quantitiy. I remember some times you had only a film on beta and had to wait for VHS and vice versa.. it was level for a long time. Slowly VHS took over and shelf space for beta declined… but it was a long time…. In my little world it was the player that decided it.. I remember the first front loading system.. it was VHS.. people around my area went mad for it. Finally you could stack the Video player underneath something! It was always an annoyance having to put your top loading video player somewhere where you could acces the loading mechanism. Little things like that made VHS more popular from my memory. I even remember some people thinking VHS must be better because the tape is bigger!!! Sounds really stupid but alot of the general public think like this!! People that arent technically minded make all sorts of mad stuff up.

    I remember way back when MS announced Xbox 360 they said it would come in various flavours from a simple games system to a fully fledged HD Media Center/Games machine with a next generation optical drive (Much how PS3 seems to be). How disappointed was I to find that the difference is only cosmetic and with a saving on peripherals. The research they did means nothing because they wanted it out Nov 2005. They couldn’t provide any HD optical drive then even if their research said HD is good because there was no HD drive then. They had no choice, they wanted the system out, they rushed it with a cheap DVD drive and made a complete balls of supply to boot. You could argue and say the REAL release of Xbox 360 was mid March 2006. Thats when you could go in a shop and actually pay NORMAL money for one.

    I actually bought my Xbox 360 with great enthusiasm, over the odds, and even a possible thought that I would not need a PS3. I had all sorts of ambition for it replacing all my clunky devices, but really its a half arsed media system, full on game system. So as a game system only it sits mainly gathering dust until something more interesting than whats being put out on the PS2 appears on it. Each month I am more drawn to PS2 games with my wage packet. Its always been like that for me ever since PS1 came out. Games on Sony’s machines are the best in my opinion, Im talking about the odd games here.. the little gems like Frequency, Fantavision, Rez, the katamari range, vib ripple N20, Parappa the Rappa, Sing star, Eye toy etc etc… not GTA GT and all the “Popular” games people keep on moaning about… its the other games that do it for me. The ones that get next to no attention at release like ICO. I bought that one when it was released and couldnt understand how it completely went unlooked… funny how now that very game is being re-released after nearly 5 years…. old games eh?

  51. #51 by Bflow on June 2nd, 2006

    I’m confused. You have people who say taht hte PS3 is a waste because it has BD that displays high def. Umm..isn’t the 360 marketed as the same in tearms of high def visuals. Everyone knows your game will look better on a HDTV. No secret. I remember going to a xbox website awhile ago and there was a poll which ask if gamers planned on buying a HDTV for their gaming. Majority said yes. The only difference is that the PS3 has a next gen drive inside the box and can display 1080p. It can also support all the resolutions up to that point. If your hdtv can’t do 1080p then your games and movies will run at 720p or 1080i. And for people to say that there isn’t a difference watching a movie at 480p is the same as 720p.1080i, or 1080p is crap. It’s a good move I think to have a BD and HDD in every system. To sit here and say Sony is forcing to do something is truly false. What about M$? What about windows on PC? What about the way their making the PC and 360 more and more similar? What about them dropping support completly on their old system and “FORCING” you to upgrade? What about them making games that only runs on Vista? I can go on and on but whats the point. Why would Sony put a new drive into their system as popular as the Playstation brand? It’s a pretty much aguarantee that MILLIONS of these drives will be in peoples homes on DAY 1. STUPID SONY. They should just drop support on the PS2 all together because everyone is going to go out and buy( All 100 million ) a PS3 on day one. Peolpe are still buying ps2s and it been out for what like 6 years now. STUPID SONY. I can’t believe they have a loyal fansbase. Didn’t know there are 100 million dumba$$es out there. STUPID SONY.

  52. #52 by sushiboots on June 4th, 2006

    Enchant Arm has already proven that Next-Gen games need more space than DVD9.

  53. #53 by Richard on June 5th, 2006

    All games could be cut down on space…i doubt theres one game that you “couldnt” make fit in 9gb, however thats using compression and loss of data. Ok compression is getting better, but for decent 720p / 1080p HD Video for cutscenes 2gb is nothing (360 Has 9gb discs, with 7gb for game data, and 2gb for video data).


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